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Date:	11/24/99 3:00:47 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest    Wednesday, November 24 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 1393<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Loans and Indentures<BR>
Re: 3d imperium<BR>
Re: adventure just waiting for the writing...<BR>
Hail Ming! Hail Ming the Merciless!<BR>
Hail Ming! Hail Ming the Merciless!<BR>
[none]<BR>
Re: 3d imperium<BR>
Re: Tourism in the Marches<BR>
RE: YKYBPTMTW<BR>
increase in computers<BR>
Re: Loans and Indentures<BR>
Re: 3d imperium<BR>
New Traveller Forms<BR>
Re: 3d imperium<BR>
Re: <BR>
Real space close to Earth<BR>
Re: Real space close to Earth<BR>
Re: Imperial culture<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:23:08 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Loans and Indentures<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 19:46:31 -0800 (PST)<BR>
> From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
> <BR>
> Okay, now William Hostman has alluded to a point<BR>
> that's always concerned me: the huge cost of Traveller<BR>
> ships. Millions always seemed ridiculous to me. It<BR>
> makes trade simply uneconomical. I think of the PC<BR>
> ship as a rather casually-run business.<BR>
<BR>
PC ships may (often) be, but as usual, PCs are not typical.  Ask anyone<BR>
who has started his or her own business; the initial years (and often the<BR>
years after that) consist of 18-hour days and a constant struggle to keep<BR>
things in (or even near) the black.  Remember that a majority of new<BR>
businesses fold within two years.<BR>
<BR>
The various trade systems are rather well-balanced with the cost of<BR>
shipping to make bulk cargo- and passenger-hauling by small ships a slow<BR>
path to bankruptcy.  This is both intentional and realistic; there's no<BR>
way 200-dton tramps are going to compete head-to-head with Tukera on<BR>
moving bulk machine parts along the Spinward Main.  Small merchants<BR>
succeed (if they do so) by filling niches the majors don't or can't<BR>
address -- charters, speculative cargoes, service to backwaters, that sort<BR>
of thing.  Adventure seeds, in other words. :)<BR>
<BR>
Look at it this way:  Any mature business sector in a capitalist society<BR>
is going to be 'marginal' (in the technical sense).  If ships were<BR>
cheaper, more of them would be operated until shipping prices fell to the<BR>
point that revenues were again hovering near the break-even point.<BR>
<BR>
> Most businesses either start in credit (having savings to invest),<BR>
<BR>
If the characters have alternate sources of capital, there's nothing to<BR>
stop them from arranging a shorter-term loan with a larger down payment,<BR>
or even purchasing a ship outright.<BR>
<BR>
> or expect/hope to clear their original loan within 10 years, and make a<BR>
> living in the meantime. <BR>
<BR>
Not usually true.  Business investments may be amortized over spans of<BR>
decades.  And making a living is a separate (though related issue. <BR>
Basically, for a privately-held business, you take your net revenue, pay<BR>
your operating expenses, service your debt, pay your minimal living<BR>
expenses, and then take what's left and either give yourself a bonus,<BR>
re-invest it in improving the business, or (most commonly) some mix of the<BR>
two. <BR>
<BR>
Note that a merchant company/ship which is doing well will probably be<BR>
able to refinance ship loans under more favorable credit terms.<BR>
<BR>
> Naturally, those that succeed don't take the extra<BR>
> thousands a month they've got from having paid off the<BR>
> loan and just spend it, they expand their business...<BR>
> (get a better ship?)<BR>
<BR>
Or hire broker services on key worlds, or improve the current ship(s), or<BR>
establish permanent facilities, or...<BR>
<BR>
> Obviously when natural lifetimes are longer at higher<BR>
> TLs, you'll be willing to have debt for longer, but<BR>
> still! T4 gives 40 years as the typical time...<BR>
> sheesh! If you need 20% down, why would you get that<BR>
> brand new 20 MCr ship when you could get a second-hand<BR>
> "engineer's dream" for 2 MCr?<BR>
<BR>
Again, in a free market prices will tend to equilibrate at the point where<BR>
the total expected cost of ownership and book value for these correlate to<BR>
the asking price.  If the 2MCr ship is a net better bargain, demand for it<BR>
will rise, and sellers will raise their prices accordingly.<BR>
<BR>
> Finally, I never bought the business of "we have ways<BR>
> of making you pay." How does a bank foreclose on a<BR>
> mortgage if the residence has Jump-3?<BR>
<BR>
How do finance companies foreclose on cars which can drive away at high<BR>
speed?  You catch them when they're parked.<BR>
<BR>
> And I don't want to hear about transponders and "late payment messages<BR>
> stopping the engine." If an engineer put it there, another engineer can<BR>
> remove it! <BR>
<BR>
No, it doesn't require tech wizardry.  Your ship puts down on Regina, and<BR>
during the week you're arranging cargo, a repo agent scanning the arrivals<BR>
list matches your transponder ID against the skip list, and files a notice<BR>
of repossession with the courts and port master.  She's worked on knowing<BR>
the right people and processes to expedite this.  Two days later the<BR>
impound docs are approved.  The first you know about it is when she (and a<BR>
few port security folks) walk up to the ship, ask to speak with the owner,<BR>
and hand you a thick envelope full of intimidating-looking legal papers.<BR>
<BR>
Now you'll probably get a hearing with an admin judge, who will determine<BR>
that you're in default and give you 3 days to have personal belongings off<BR>
the ship.  Alternatively, you can take off without permission, blow<BR>
through the TCA and orbital traffic pattern, and run for it.  Now you've<BR>
gone from being a deadbeat to being a wanted high-level felon (you<BR>
endangered a lot of lives, doing that, and stole the finance company's<BR>
property).  On some worlds, local air or space units may shoot at you if<BR>
they're positiioned well to do so on your way to jump.<BR>
<BR>
Not a good thing.<BR>
<BR>
So if you decide to skip, or if you've done the break-and-run option<BR>
above, your only real hope is to go far, far, *far* away, outside Imperial<BR>
space.  While getting there you must avoid any legitimate starport, patrol<BR>
cruisers, and so forth.   Depending on how far you are from the border,<BR>
and which border that is, your chances range from poor to nonexistent.<BR>
Alternatively, you can 'go pirate' -- stay inside the Imperium, perhaps<BR>
near your original area of operations, but operate clandestinely, avoiding<BR>
all contact with authorities (and civilians looking for reward money).<BR>
Again, I'd have to say your odds of lasting long aren't good, especially<BR>
after that jump core failure that could be fixed in two days at a Class-A<BR>
port, but...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net<BR>
 --*--  http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html<BR>
   |   "They do not preach that their God will rouse them<BR>
      a little before the nuts work loose." - Kipling<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 19:14:56 -0000<BR>
From: "Mark S Peace" <mark.s.peace@dunelm.org.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: 3d imperium<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 01:49:00 -0800<BR>
>From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net><BR>
>Subject: Re: 3d imperium<BR>
><BR>
>> From: "Mark S Peace" <mark.s.peace@dunelm.org.uk><BR>
><BR>
>> >From: Steve Lieb <steve@necadon.com><BR>
><BR>
>> >Has anyone ever tried even somewhat successfully to 3-dimensionalize an<BR>
>> >otherwise-standard CT Imperium?<BR>
><BR>
>> I thought about it, but there's one big problem:<BR>
>> If you stick with 11000 worlds arranged in approximately a sphere the<BR>
>> travel time from Core to, say, the Spinward Marches is only a few weeks.<BR>
The<BR>
>> alternative is if you decide on a transit time of, say, 1-2 years you get<BR>
>> an empire of tens of millions of systems.<BR>
><BR>
>What if you don't use a sphere?  How about a saucer shape?  Out here in<BR>
>the spiral arm, the galaxy is not as thick as at the center (but it<BR>
>might be so thick that a sphere would be the only realistic shape for<BR>
>known space).<BR>
><BR>
>- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
11000 stars at a concentration of 1 per 2 cubic parsecs would only be a<BR>
distance of 17 parsecs from the core to the edge.  Even allowing for<BR>
non-spherical shapes and lower stellar densities I can't imagine a radius of<BR>
more than maybe 30 parsecs.  I think the galactic disk is 1000-1500 parsecs<BR>
thick in the region of the sun.  The galaxy is a big place.<BR>
<BR>
Given the rather huge size of the galaxy, is there anything else out there?<BR>
For starters, the Zhodani sent expeditions most of the way to the galactic<BR>
core.  Did they really discover no other major powers?<BR>
<BR>
Mark.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 15:17:52 -0500<BR>
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net><BR>
Subject: Re: adventure just waiting for the writing...<BR>
<BR>
At 07:27 AM 11/24/99 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>>Well, I just did a crude calc for a famous SF vessel. I come up<BR>
with a<BR>
>>*minimum* of over 500e15 (500 *quadrillion*) m^3. Or about 40<BR>
>>quadrillion dTons. And it was likely more than double that. <BR>
>><BR>
>>Question. At what TL can *one* person run such a vessel? <BR>
><BR>
>That's a mighty big ship, especially for just one person. The only<BR>
>published SF example I can think of -- great big huge ship, one<BR>
>person running it -- is the ecological seedship run by Haviland Tuf<BR>
>in George R.R. Martin's "Tuf Voyaging".<BR>
<BR>
	The "Fesarius," in a Classic Trek episode?<BR>
<BR>
- -- Chaos reigns within. <BR>
      Reflect, repent, and reboot.<BR>
   Order shall return.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:41:11 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Hail Ming! Hail Ming the Merciless!<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure that I actually sent this to the list, so<BR>
I'm sending it again.  (I haven't seen it today, but<BR>
I've seen other things I sent last night.)  Enjoy.<BR>
<BR>
>From: Dan Roseberry <rosebee@troi.csw.net><BR>
> <BR>
>Yes! Yes! And all of us lurkers want the stats for<BR>
> Ming the Merciless!<BR>
<BR>
Your wish is my command:<BR>
<BR>
Ming the Merciless<BR>
Baron Ming of Mongo, Great Ruler of Mongo<BR>
<BR>
Tax Collector, 5 terms; Archvillain and Dictator, 28<BR>
terms; age 150<BR>
<BR>
758DDB<BR>
<BR>
Education:<BR>
*Honorary Doctor of Laws, Ming University of Mongo,<BR>
1012<BR>
*Bachelor of Arts, Accounting, Summa cum Laude,<BR>
University of Rhylanor, 979<BR>
<BR>
Decorations and Awards:<BR>
*Diamond Medallion of Extreme Gratitude for Unwavering<BR>
Service and Devotion to Mongo, 1084<BR>
*Star of Mongo (for Bravery in Combat), 1084<BR>
*Silver Diamond (Wounded in Action), 1084<BR>
*Gold Star of Recognition for Service to Mongo, 1082,<BR>
1032<BR>
*Order of Dihara (Medal for Service to Mongo) 997,<BR>
1000, 1008, 1011<BR>
*Colonist Cross (Medal for Heroism in Service to<BR>
Mongo), 1034, 1055, 1082, 1083<BR>
*Employee of the Month, Regina System Revenue Bureau,<BR>
143 awards during 979-994<BR>
<BR>
Leader-4<BR>
Recruiting-2<BR>
Interrogation-2<BR>
Admin-2<BR>
Accounting-5<BR>
Carousing-1<BR>
<BR>
Tactics-1<BR>
<BR>
Sword (including kung fu broadsword)-2 (was -5)<BR>
Dagger-2 (was -4)<BR>
Laser weapons-0<BR>
Handgun-0<BR>
Melee combat/martial arts-2 (was -4)<BR>
<BR>
Grav vehicle-1<BR>
Wheeled vehicle-0<BR>
Pilot-0<BR>
Computer-1<BR>
<BR>
Telepathy (strength 10)<BR>
Awareness (strength 4)<BR>
<BR>
Personal/employment history:<BR>
<BR>
*Born 957, Regina/Regina, as Demetrio Ming Goldfarb<BR>
*Psionics training 960-974 with Dame Claudia Takata,<BR>
Regina/Regina<BR>
*University of Rhylanor 975-979<BR>
*Regina System Revenue Bureau, 979-994<BR>
Auditor; Senior Auditor; Chief Auditor; Region<BR>
Supervisor<BR>
*Married Sohara Taffin, 980<BR>
*Son Sven born 982<BR>
*Son David born 985<BR>
*Divorce 993<BR>
*Mongo Tax Service, 995-999<BR>
*Revenue and Audit Consultant<BR>
*Chief Tax Collector of Mongo 1000-1004<BR>
*Prime Minister of Mongo 1004-1008<BR>
*Named Ruler of Mongo 1008 by acclamation of Mongo<BR>
Central Government<BR>
*Married Dame Janelle Oberlindes 1008<BR>
*Named Baron Ming of Mongo 1011 by Emperor Gavin<BR>
*Unified Mongo by conquering nations of Shiree<BR>
(1010)and Oranz (1031)<BR>
*Daughter Artemisa born 1018<BR>
*Reorganized Mongo Central Bank 1020<BR>
*Son Gengiz born 1022<BR>
*Daughter Adolpa born 1030<BR>
*Led Mongo National Guard in putting down Ine Givar<BR>
insurrections 1034, 1055<BR>
*Created Mongo Armored Battalion 1081<BR>
*Led defense of Mongo during Fourth Frontier War,<BR>
1082-1084<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:41:11 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Hail Ming! Hail Ming the Merciless!<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure that I actually sent this to the list, so<BR>
I'm sending it again.  (I haven't seen it today, but<BR>
I've seen other things I sent last night.)  Enjoy.<BR>
<BR>
>From: Dan Roseberry <rosebee@troi.csw.net><BR>
> <BR>
>Yes! Yes! And all of us lurkers want the stats for<BR>
> Ming the Merciless!<BR>
<BR>
Your wish is my command:<BR>
<BR>
Ming the Merciless<BR>
Baron Ming of Mongo, Great Ruler of Mongo<BR>
<BR>
Tax Collector, 5 terms; Archvillain and Dictator, 28<BR>
terms; age 150<BR>
<BR>
758DDB<BR>
<BR>
Education:<BR>
*Honorary Doctor of Laws, Ming University of Mongo,<BR>
1012<BR>
*Bachelor of Arts, Accounting, Summa cum Laude,<BR>
University of Rhylanor, 979<BR>
<BR>
Decorations and Awards:<BR>
*Diamond Medallion of Extreme Gratitude for Unwavering<BR>
Service and Devotion to Mongo, 1084<BR>
*Star of Mongo (for Bravery in Combat), 1084<BR>
*Silver Diamond (Wounded in Action), 1084<BR>
*Gold Star of Recognition for Service to Mongo, 1082,<BR>
1032<BR>
*Order of Dihara (Medal for Service to Mongo) 997,<BR>
1000, 1008, 1011<BR>
*Colonist Cross (Medal for Heroism in Service to<BR>
Mongo), 1034, 1055, 1082, 1083<BR>
*Employee of the Month, Regina System Revenue Bureau,<BR>
143 awards during 979-994<BR>
<BR>
Leader-4<BR>
Recruiting-2<BR>
Interrogation-2<BR>
Admin-2<BR>
Accounting-5<BR>
Carousing-1<BR>
<BR>
Tactics-1<BR>
<BR>
Sword (including kung fu broadsword)-2 (was -5)<BR>
Dagger-2 (was -4)<BR>
Laser weapons-0<BR>
Handgun-0<BR>
Melee combat/martial arts-2 (was -4)<BR>
<BR>
Grav vehicle-1<BR>
Wheeled vehicle-0<BR>
Pilot-0<BR>
Computer-1<BR>
<BR>
Telepathy (strength 10)<BR>
Awareness (strength 4)<BR>
<BR>
Personal/employment history:<BR>
<BR>
*Born 957, Regina/Regina, as Demetrio Ming Goldfarb<BR>
*Psionics training 960-974 with Dame Claudia Takata,<BR>
Regina/Regina<BR>
*University of Rhylanor 975-979<BR>
*Regina System Revenue Bureau, 979-994<BR>
Auditor; Senior Auditor; Chief Auditor; Region<BR>
Supervisor<BR>
*Married Sohara Taffin, 980<BR>
*Son Sven born 982<BR>
*Son David born 985<BR>
*Divorce 993<BR>
*Mongo Tax Service, 995-999<BR>
*Revenue and Audit Consultant<BR>
*Chief Tax Collector of Mongo 1000-1004<BR>
*Prime Minister of Mongo 1004-1008<BR>
*Named Ruler of Mongo 1008 by acclamation of Mongo<BR>
Central Government<BR>
*Married Dame Janelle Oberlindes 1008<BR>
*Named Baron Ming of Mongo 1011 by Emperor Gavin<BR>
*Unified Mongo by conquering nations of Shiree<BR>
(1010)and Oranz (1031)<BR>
*Daughter Artemisa born 1018<BR>
*Reorganized Mongo Central Bank 1020<BR>
*Son Gengiz born 1022<BR>
*Daughter Adolpa born 1030<BR>
*Led Mongo National Guard in putting down Ine Givar<BR>
insurrections 1034, 1055<BR>
*Created Mongo Armored Battalion 1081<BR>
*Led defense of Mongo during Fourth Frontier War,<BR>
1082-1084<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 11:45:07 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: [none]<BR>
<BR>
JR Dietrich Writes:<BR>
>As Anthony pointed out, "unstreamlined" hulls in GT are what traditional<BR>
>Traveller called partially streamlined, and "streamlined" hulls are<BR>
>airframes. So tell me ... should there be a "partially streamlined"<BR>
>category in GT to represent Traveller streamlined ships?!?<BR>
><BR>
>What exasperates me about this is that GV doesn't even use the Traveller<BR>
>classifications "unstreamlined, partially streamlined, streamlined," or<BR>
>"airframe." Instead, a vehicle is either streamlined or it isn't, with<BR>
>several levels of streamlining available.<BR>
><BR>
What you are missing is that there are 3 different categorizations, and<BR>
different methods in use through the various editions.<BR>
CT/Bk2	CT/HG		MT/FF&S		GT<BR>
USL	USL		USL		-	No Atm<BR>
- -	PSL		SL		USL<BR>
SL	SL		AF		SL	Can glide<BR>
<BR>
USL= Unstreamlined<BR>
PSL=Partially Streamlined<BR>
SL= Streamlined<BR>
AF= AirFrame<BR>
<BR>
Each different set used the terms differently. In FF&S1, there is a waste<BR>
volume penalty for AF designs. In GURPS, there is a penalty for SL designs,<BR>
which ARE MT/TNE/T4 Airframe designs.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis mailto:wilh@alaska.com<BR>
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:51:01 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 3d imperium<BR>
<BR>
Mark S Peace writes:<BR>
 <BR>
> 11000 stars at a concentration of 1 per 2 cubic parsecs would only be a<BR>
> distance of 17 parsecs from the core to the edge.  Even allowing for<BR>
> non-spherical shapes and lower stellar densities I can't imagine a radius<BR>
> of more than maybe 30 parsecs.  I think the galactic disk is 1000-1500<BR>
> parsecs thick in the region of the sun.  The galaxy is a big place.<BR>
<BR>
Well, it depends.  If you drop all the M-class stars and use relatively realistic star densities you get a 50-60 parsec radius.  If you assume that only 10% of all those systems are reasonably inhabitable you get a 100-150 parsec radius.  On the other hand, a J-1 ship is likely to be unable to reach anywhere interesting with real star densities; with 10% of worlds being useful, you need to jump an average of 10 parsecs to reach another habitable world...<BR>
<BR>
Any way you go about it, if jump-1 can reach an average of 2 stars, and Jump-6 is 6x as far, jump-6 will be able to reach an average of 400 stars, and the entire imperium should be about jump-20 across.  One option is to make J-6 not be 6x as far -- call it 3.5x as far and it doesn't reach that many more stars than a standard J-6 ship.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 15:59:35 -0500<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Tourism in the Marches<BR>
<BR>
"Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net> wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > non-fruit-bearing trees, which soak themselves with a natural anti-fungal agent<BR>
> > (which is, unfortunately again, highly flamable, making the trees a poor choice<BR>
> > of building materials).<BR>
> <BR>
> Can you imaging how valuable the charcoal gas (like coke gas from coal)<BR>
> could be from such plants?  <BR>
<BR>
Hm, well, not that valuable, since I stole the idea from something <BR>
I heard about a real Terran variety of tree, which is apparently <BR>
only good for making flutes.<BR>
<BR>
> Bake the wood and distill the gas for use as a<BR>
> high octane fuel.  <BR>
<BR>
Flammable != high octane. There are plenty of things that burn<BR>
that also make lousy fuel. Roof tar, for example. The substance<BR>
secreted by these trees would probably be something like tree sap<BR>
with a lot of oil in it - Eucalyptus trees, for example, are<BR>
really oily and a forest fire in Australia is apparently something<BR>
pretty severe, even compared to a "regular" forest fire. Heck, the<BR>
Blue Montains are blue due to the high content of eucalyptus oil<BR>
vapour in the air (or so I'm told).<BR>
<BR>
You'd probably get a better fuel pulping the trees and fermenting<BR>
them to make methanol. Methanol kicks ass.<BR>
<BR>
> Depending upon its chemical properties, it might even be<BR>
> possible to leach out the anti-fungal agent(s) and re-use them, perhaps<BR>
> rendering the wood stock usable for building.  Such a process might require<BR>
> pulping, but he pulp could be "glued" back together creating a building<BR>
> material that would be stronger than ordianary wood.<BR>
<BR>
Sure. I mean, it would depend on how valuable the stuff was to <BR>
someone other than the tree. Normal tree sap is pretty useless<BR>
(unless you're at TL 2 I assume). Most "natural" products that<BR>
need to be harvested in quantity are cheaper to produce synthetically,<BR>
like rubber or ASA. Once you figure out what the anti-fungal<BR>
agent is, you can probably create it cheaper in a lab/industrial <BR>
process.<BR>
<BR>
Rober asked about Whanga's sun though... from the Spinward Marches <BR>
Campaign, it's actually a binary system, with the primary being an<BR>
A and the secondary a M. The sky probably looks pretty wierd<BR>
and I wouldn't be surprised if Whangan chlorophyll was not green,<BR>
like orange, yellow or blue.<BR>
<BR>
Not being an astronomer, where's the peak of Sol's light output <BR>
in the visual range and where the same peak for an A star? Presumably<BR>
Whangan plants have their colour shifted similarly.<BR>
<BR>
Ethan<BR>
- --<BR>
Ethan Henry                                        egh@klg.com<BR>
Java Evangelist, KL Group                   http://www.klg.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 16:22:55 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: YKYBPTMTW<BR>
<BR>
Jens Rydholm writes:<BR>
>Timothy Collinson wrote:<BR>
>>>You Know You've Been Playing Too Much Traveller When:<BR>
>>Or you walk across some hexagonal paving stones and expect to<BR>
>>take a week getting from one to another.<BR>
>But you might be able to move more than one step at a time... :-)<BR>
<BR>
	Be careful. If you've been drinking unfiltered water, you<BR>
	might miss-step!<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 16:43:00 -0500<BR>
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com><BR>
Subject: increase in computers<BR>
<BR>
At 12:39 AM 11/24/99 -0600, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
>Seriously, one of the quibbles I have about the various ship design<BR>
>sequences in Traveller is that one gains no extra benefit from<BR>
>increasing the number of computers (over the required number) linked<BR>
>into ship operations.  Perhaps for each additional doubling of computing<BR>
>power, the crew requirement could be halved.<BR>
><BR>
>Feedback, anyone?<BR>
<BR>
My experience at work shows that an increase in computers in no way allows<BR>
us to lay off experienced programmers, engineers, or even program managers.<BR>
<BR>
We don't have anyone typing up dictation, and we could get rid of the mail<BR>
room easily enough though.<BR>
<BR>
Steward is the only job I can think of that could be replaced by a computer.<BR>
<BR>
I don't know how smart your computers are though...<BR>
- --<BR>
"Nobody knows who they were or what they were doing but they were<BR>
definitely running Unix ..." -- Heidi Pollock on WebMonkey.com<BR>
Rob Brady                                robb at datatone dot com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 13:53:31 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Loans and Indentures<BR>
<BR>
Craig Berry writes:<BR>
<BR>
<sane economics snipped><BR>
<BR>
Basically, if you wanted to have more cheap, tramp starships, what you'd need to do is recognize that 100 dT is BIG, and that the electronics for starships are pretty outlandish as well.  An age of sail tramp steamer would probably be more like 10-20 dT, and pretty cheaply made as well.  It isn't surprising that these enormous, extremely capable ships (your average free trader is probably 30-40 meters long) are also expensive.<BR>
<BR>
If you make a 100 T ship actually normally weigh in the 100T range (which means, depending on version, a 5-10x reduction in volume) it becomes a lot less unreasonable; drop the electronics correspondingly, and you start seeing prices which are only in the few millions; still expensive, but much more believable than the 20-40 million for a free trader.  Actually, a 5x reduction in volume makes things like staterooms come much closer to real-world sizes.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 13:59:21 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 3d imperium<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson writes:<BR>
 <BR>
> Finally _why_ is jumpspace not directly corresponding to RW spacetime<BR>
> 'weak'? It's essentially the same theory as wormholes in current<BR>
> cosmology; a shortcut through the fabric of spacetime.<BR>
<BR>
Well, (1) you apparently can jump to arbitrary locations, not just specific points, and (2) there is no possible unique continuous mapping from a sphere onto a plane (and in fact, more or less requires that occasionally J-1 is going thousands of parsecs), and (3) historical canon suggests that jumpspace and RW space are closely linked.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 16:03:13 -0600<BR>
From: Alex Ingram <ingram@airmail.net><BR>
Subject: New Traveller Forms<BR>
<BR>
For those world builders out there I just finished and posted a six-age<BR>
"System / Planet Worksheet" at Downport.com. Please review it and give me some<BR>
feedback. I'm sure it's too long for some and too short for others and I know<BR>
I've left something out. I really need your feed back; Once I finalize their<BR>
look and feel I'll eventually package them for publication and sale.<BR>
<BR>
Alex Ingram<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 22:03:19 -0000<BR>
From: "Mark S Peace" <mark.s.peace@dunelm.org.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: 3d imperium<BR>
<BR>
>Finally _why_ is jumpspace not directly corresponding to RW spacetime<BR>
>'weak'? It's essentially the same theory as wormholes in current<BR>
>cosmology; a shortcut through the fabric of spacetime.<BR>
><BR>
>Bruce Johnson<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I imagined it like crumpling up a piece of paper into a ball.  The ball is<BR>
'real space' (3d) and the surface of the paper is 'jump space' (2d).  The<BR>
problem is that somewhere in this scheme you end up with points close<BR>
together in real space but very far apart in jump space.  (You're right in<BR>
that this is exactly what wormholes might allow, but I don't see a nice 2d<BR>
map being the result.)<BR>
<BR>
If you want to have this 2d jumpspace at the very least you have to drop the<BR>
pretence that directions 'coreward' and 'spinward' etc are valid in<BR>
jumpspace.  Where would you put a star on a traveller map that was 'up' with<BR>
no coreward or spinward components?<BR>
<BR>
Mark.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 20:03:02 -0000<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: <BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: William F. Hostman <aramis@gci.net><BR>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com><BR>
Date: 24 November 1999 05:01<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
>If the agent finds proof of payment, fine, he's got to leave.<BR>
>Otherwise, including if the crew refuses access to the papers and/or ship<BR>
>after seeing appropriate credentials, the agent may reposess the ship "On<BR>
>suspicion". I only did this to a PC group once... it ended the campaign<BR>
>(They wound up confined to an imperial prison world, since the note holder<BR>
>was the Imperial Government, and the "Tracer" was an IMOJ field agent...<BR>
>whom they shot.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ended the campaign?... Ended The Campaign?!?, why didn't you just run them<BR>
through Adv 8 Prison Planet, it was *made* for just such an event. Ok, it<BR>
may not be everyone's cup of tea, but at least it continues the game and has<BR>
the *possibility* of escape and freedom...<BR>
<BR>
YMMV,<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 23:41:23 +0100<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Real space close to Earth<BR>
<BR>
Is there a website somewhere with some general information about the<BR>
stars closest to us? It would be especially nice if the page included<BR>
coordinates of some kind, so that I can use them to make a 3D-map of our<BR>
surroundings.<BR>
<BR>
I am thinking of running a "first-contact" type of scenario, and I would<BR>
like the stars to be at the correct positions if possible. Is there<BR>
anything I should think more carefully about when running such a<BR>
scenario?<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 14:55:25 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Real space close to Earth<BR>
<BR>
Jens Rydholm writes:<BR>
> Is there a website somewhere with some general information about the<BR>
> stars closest to us? It would be especially nice if the page included<BR>
> coordinates of some kind, so that I can use them to make a 3D-map of our<BR>
> surroundings.<BR>
<BR>
I suggest the '3d starmaps' webpage, at http://www.clark.net/pub/nyrath/starmap.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 08:17:58 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial culture<BR>
<BR>
I tried to send this yesterday and bounced it, cos I'm dumb.<BR>
<BR>
> From: Steven Hudson <BR>
>  <ahem>  consider:<BR>
>         the probable linguistic roots of "Aslan"<BR>
>         the population described in A:9, Nomads of the World Ocean.<BR>
>         the basis (AM:8, p.8) of the Darrian technical explosion.<BR>
> <BR>
>  The OTU is _Turks in Space_! And while you might not want to turn your<BR>
> backs on them, at least they're humble about their achievements :><BR>
> <BR>
>   Deal with it :)               <fnord><BR>
<BR>
Well, this is obviously correct, and I congratulate Comrade Hudson on his<BR>
insight!<BR>
<BR>
How it happened is obviously the next question, and I suspect I have the<BR>
answer.<BR>
<BR>
You see, most of the former Soviet Cosmodromes and stuff are in places like<BR>
Kazakhstan, where the local populations tend to be mostly Islamic, and<BR>
often speak Turkic type languages (as well as Russian, of course).  <BR>
<BR>
At some point in the 21st Century, the "Russian" space program largely<BR>
becomes the "Central Asian" space program.  "Naturally enough", the Central<BR>
Asian states turn to their co-religionists in Turkey for assistance, which<BR>
has been vaguely industrialised by European capital.  <BR>
<BR>
With the US being run by people like Jesse Ventura, Pat Buchanan, Donald<BR>
Trump and Ross Perot, the Turkish/Central Asian bloc becomes the vanguard<BR>
of humanity's expansion into space... :-)<BR>
<BR>
Has anyone read any books by Ken Macleod?  He's a friend of Iain Banks who<BR>
writes this mutant-Marxist cyberpunk stuff.  It's a bit odd, and he insists<BR>
on making lots of obscure references, but he also has flashes of<BR>
brilliance.  His latest book is at least partly set in a micro-state built<BR>
around some of the former Soviet space facilities (and a bunch of concealed<BR>
nukes).  One of his earlier books has some _very_ scary stuff about<BR>
"post-humans", who I really don't like....<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1393<BR>
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